Secrets to SEO & Digital PR Success from Amanda Walls, Backed by 15+ Years of Experience

Welcome to another episode of our podcast, where we dive deep into the world of digital marketing with industry leaders who share their hard-earned wisdom and insights. Today, we have the pleasure of hosting Amanda Walls, the Director of Cedarwood Digital Agency, a recognized expert with over 15 years of experience in the ever-evolving fields of SEO and Digital PR.

If you're an entrepreneur, marketer, or someone looking to boost your online presence, this episode is tailored for you. Amanda's journey from journalism to becoming a leading figure in digital marketing is as inspiring as it is informative. She has built a successful agency from the ground up and knows the ins and outs of what it takes to thrive in this competitive industry.

In this episode, Amanda shares her expert tips on overcoming the challenges of starting and scaling an SEO agency, the importance of networking, and the strategies that have led her agency to win awards across the UK and Europe. She also delves into the nitty-gritty of digital PR, discussing its value beyond mere link building and how it can be a powerful tool for brand building.

But that's not all — Amanda provides actionable advice on avoiding common pitfalls in SEO, managing client expectations, and the significance of a well-structured approach to technical SEO. Whether you're just starting your digital marketing journey or looking to refine your strategies, Amanda's insights will be invaluable.

So, grab a notebook, settle in, and get ready to uncover the secrets to SEO and Digital PR success with Amanda Walls. And if you find this episode helpful, don't forget to subscribe, share, and leave us a review. Let's dive in!

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Amanda's presentation:

Oleksandra Khilova [OK]: Hello, guys. Today, I am with Amanda. She is a director at Cedarwood Digital Agency. Thank you for coming. I really appreciate that you agreed to visit us.

Amanda Walls [AW]: Yeah, absolutely. So, firstly, thank you so much for having me here today. I'm really excited to be sharing my knowledge with everybody.

[OK]: Today, we’ll discuss the secrets to SEO and digital PR success. Amanda has extensive experience, and I hope this video will be helpful for those starting their own businesses. Amanda, the floor is yours. 

[AW]: Definitely, starting an SEO agency has a lot of challenges, and I've learned a lot along the way, so I'm hoping that I'll be able to impart some of that knowledge to everybody. My background is actually quite different from SEO. I started as a journalist and grew up in Melbourne, Australia. I’m based in the UK now, but growing up, I went through phases where I wanted to be many different things. I initially wanted to be a lawyer, but after some work experience, I realized it wasn’t for me. Then, I wanted to be an actor and tried drama for a while, but it didn’t fit. I also explored musical theater before finally settling on journalism. I pursued a bachelor’s and then a master’s degree in journalism. 

However, by the time I finished university, the journalism landscape had changed significantly. The internet had become very popular, and the industry was evolving.

This might make me sound old, but when I say the internet had become popular, I mean journalism was moving online. Citizen journalism emerged, with people reporting through videos on their phones, reducing the need for traditional journalists on the scene. During my master's degree, I explored how to apply my journalism skills to another field, which led me to digital marketing. That’s how I transitioned into digital marketing.

Afterward, I traveled for a year and a half, mostly through Southeast Asia. When I returned to the UK, I found a job at a digital agency. I wasn’t sure what I wanted to do, so I applied for various roles but eventually landed a position as a copywriter at an SEO agency. That’s how I started in SEO — learning on the job, attending external training courses, and going to conferences. I spent the first part of my career, about six years, at an agency, learning the ropes.

I started with copywriting, then moved into content strategy, and later dabbled in PPC to explore different aspects of digital marketing. Eventually, I became the Head of Digital, overseeing SEO, PPC, and the entire digital marketing function. By my sixth year, after holding that position for about a year, I realized I wanted more control over my time and the flexibility to travel, which led me to consider freelancing.

[AW]: When I started Cedarwood, my initial plan was to freelance, not build a big agency. So, I left the agency where I was working and started my business with some support at the time. The first crucial lesson I learned was the importance of building a network. Networking is incredibly important because, especially in today's environment, it’s challenging to secure new business and gain traction without it.

I was fortunate when I started Cedarwood because I already knew many people from previous work and industry connections. I had been attending events, networking, and going to conferences to establish myself beforehand. So, about eight and a half years ago, I started Cedarwood, and it's hard to believe it's been that long. It feels like just yesterday.

[AW]: When I began, Cedarwood was incredibly lean. We operated out of a small shipping container with no windows, just a single glass panel at the end, located in a place called the Sharp Project. It was a government-funded space for startups, and we only paid £140 a month in rent, which was next to nothing compared to what we pay now, probably 50 times that amount. The support from the start was invaluable, but it really was just a simple shipping container.

It was definitely challenging at the start. I remember when we first upgraded to a double container with glass on both sides. That felt like a significant step up, and we managed to fit six people in that office, which was a big bonus since we could finally see outside. Although we were still in a warehouse filled with containers, I knew I needed to keep things lean from the beginning. Office space was a major overhead, so I needed to be careful.

Initially, we were working at my kitchen table, but it quickly became clear that it wasn’t going to work — for me or for my first staff member. Working at someone’s kitchen table isn’t ideal for starting a business. The investment in the shipping container office was a good move, even though it was a bit out of town and made commuting a little harder for our first hires. However, it helped us keep our overheads low in that first year.

From there, the business grew steadily. We hired more staff, moved office spaces, and eventually settled in Manchester city center, which has been great for attracting talent. The business really took off from there. Initially, I started as a freelancer, then hired my first staff member, and the work kept coming in, largely through referrals and word of mouth. People I hadn’t worked with in years began reaching out, needing an SEO agency.

Today, we have 12 staff members, we're based in the city center, and we've won awards for our work across the UK and Europe. It’s been an exciting eight years, and I’m looking forward to discussing it in more detail because there are definitely many lessons I’ve learned along the way.

[OK]: I have a question you might not be able to answer, but how many hours did you sleep during that time?

[AW]: We started out with very little sleep, honestly. There were very few days off, especially at the beginning, because I was doing everything myself. I was building the website, even though I’m not a website builder by trade. I was on Wix and WordPress, learning as I went. I remember my first Christmas after starting the business — I didn’t really have a holiday. I was just working non-stop, and even in the evenings, when I got home, I was still working, trying to build relationships. Sleep was definitely scarce, but I was lucky to have a supportive partner who helped out when he could because there wasn’t much time.

Starting your own business makes it hard to delegate. A lot of people buy into you and your experience when they work with your business, so when you’re hiring staff, especially in the early days, it’s challenging. Now, I have staff who have been with us for three, four, five, six years.

[AW]: I know my current team is really good, and I trust them completely. When I sell a service to clients, I’m confident they’ll get excellent service because I’ve worked with these people for a long time. But at the start, you don’t have that trust yet. I felt like I had to be heavily involved in every aspect of the business. As a result, I didn’t get much sleep, didn’t take many holidays, and often took my laptop with me when I did. Even when I went traveling or on holiday, I was still working. So, in the beginning, there wasn’t much downtime.

[OK]: I think it's a common mistake when people start a business. The first lesson is to try to delegate, but you can't delegate until you've built your own workflow. It's your business, so you need to understand at least the basics of each department's workflow to manage and delegate effectively. Until you've done that, you can't really delegate. It's a huge mistake when people start a business and try to delegate too soon. Delegation is a skill, and to develop it, you need to work as a website builder, link builder, and content writer — basically, you need to do the jobs yourself first.

[OK]: It's interesting to meet people with journalism experience because I work on the opposite side, trying to pitch to journalists. Recently, Muck Rack published a study showing that many journalists ignore pitches. What do you think about that? Do you have any funny stories about pitches from your journalism days? How do journalists generally feel when they receive pitches, and how does it work on the inside?

Source: Muck Rack - State of Journalism 2024

[AW]: Looking back on my years as a journalist, I worked across different mediums — TV, print, and radio — so I got a broad range of experience. One thing that stood out, and I imagine it’s only gotten worse since then, is just how busy journalists are. In a newsroom, we’d start the day with an assignment, maybe four or five stories to cover. If I was on a TV round, I’d have to go out, film the piece, interview people, and get all the footage ready for the evening news. If it was printed, I’d be given stories by the editor that needed to be covered and completed by the end of the day. We’d accept pitches from PRs for the rest, but the reality was that I was always time-poor. There was never enough time, and I’m sure it’s even more challenging for journalists now.

[AW]: With fewer journalists and just as many stories to cover, the pressure is immense. I had a really awful experience early in my career when I got the chance to interview Roger Federer during the Australian Open. I was so excited to speak with him that I completely forgot to record the interview. I asked him great questions and got excellent responses, but when I returned to the office and tried to play back the recording, there was nothing on the tape. It was one of the main stories of the day since he was in the Australian Open finals, and I was devastated. I had no idea what to do. When I told my editor, she absolutely tore into me.

[AW]: She said, "This was supposed to be our biggest story of the day, and you forgot to record it. How could you forget?" But I was so starstruck when I saw Roger Federer that my brain just didn’t compute to push the record button. Without the quotes, I couldn’t run the story. That experience taught me an important lesson: if you don’t have expert commentary, you don’t have a story. It’s not enough to write about something — you need the supporting information. I couldn’t just write about Roger Federer being in the Australian Open; the real story was in what he said — his training, his feelings, his anticipation. And I couldn’t recall enough of it to write the piece. It was a traumatizing experience.

[AW]: I remember another time when I was filming a piece to camera — where you talk directly to the camera about your story.

We couldn’t get the right angle, so I stood on a big camera box to get a bit taller since I’m not very tall. Right in the middle of filming, the box gave way, and I fell over, breaking my wrist. That wasn’t ideal, but we were trying to get the perfect shot. Despite incidents like that, I really loved working as a journalist. Every day was new and different.

One thing I would say is that, on top of going out to film stories, getting comments, and reporting back, there wasn’t much time spent at my desk. I know PR professionals spend a lot of time pitching, but in my experience, timing is crucial for a press release to get noticed. If it came in while I was at my desk, it had a much better chance of being picked up.

[AW]: If a press release came in while I was out — interviewing someone, gathering quotes, or doing anything else — and I returned to find 60 pitches, I was less likely to read through it. It was partly luck of the draw, depending on what I was doing that day. Another crucial factor was that everything needed to be in the email. I needed all the information: data, a clear methodology, and quotes. I didn’t have the time to dig for details, so I needed everything to be clear and concise.

If there were images, I needed them to be readily available, ideally with a link to a high-res Dropbox or something similar. The press releases that provided all this upfront were the ones I was more likely to cover. Of course, the story needed to be great and newsworthy, but having everything well-organized and available at the right time was key.

[OK]: Now, let’s talk about the challenges. What are the key challenges every digital agency owner can face from the start?

[AW]: Sure. When I was putting together this deck, I realized I could probably create ten slides on key challenges because there are so many. Running an agency is challenging but also very rewarding. I love what I do and wouldn’t change it, but there are four key issues we face most often.

The first is finance. It’s a fundamental business challenge — managing money in versus money out, ensuring the business is solvent, making a profit, paying staff and suppliers, and ensuring clients pay on time. That’s a significant issue for small businesses. From the start, if you’re looking to start a business, funding is a major consideration. I chose to self-fund my business, which means I own it 100% and don’t have external stakeholders to report to. That autonomy is really important to me.

[AW]: Other people choose to take investment at the start in exchange for a share of their business, which is something to consider. From a financial perspective, it’s crucial to decide where to save and where to spend your money. You can’t be too frugal — you need to invest in marketing. We have a dedicated marketing budget that we spend on various activities, whether it’s talks, advertisements, or promoting ourselves on social media.

When I started Cedarwood, I didn’t do any marketing for the first couple of years — no talks, no visibility, neither for myself as a personal brand nor for the business. People won’t come to you if they don’t know you exist. It’s important to consider how much time and budget you allocate to marketing and ensure you set that aside to create those opportunities.

[OK]: How would you recommend dividing marketing expenses from the start? Should it be 50%, 70%, or something else? What number would you suggest?

[AW]: I’ve always allocated 15% to marketing. Of course, it depends on your profit and turnover, so it varies by business. For us, 15% has been enough because it accounts for how much work we can actually take on. If we spent 50% on marketing, we’d probably get a lot of leads, but we wouldn’t have the capacity to service them all. As a small agency, we don’t aim to grow to 50 or 60 staff — that’s not our niche. It’s about finding the right kind of leads in the right volume, and 15% has worked well for us.

[AW]: The next key challenge I’d highlight is staffing. Staffing is a challenge for any business owner, whether it is digital space or not. However, in the digital space, it’s particularly tough because people tend to move around a lot more. Data here in the UK shows that the average tenure for someone in digital marketing is about nine months, which is a nightmare for an agency owner. Nine months isn’t long enough, especially after investing time in training and introducing them to clients.

Staff retention is incredibly important and a significant challenge for us. We address this by promoting a positive company culture and ensuring we recruit the right people — those who will enjoy working at Cedarwood and contribute effectively. We also make sure we’re paying at the market level, doing salary benchmarking every six months to stay competitive. Additionally, we conduct 360 reviews every six months to gather feedback and identify any issues, and we hold monthly NPS (Net Promoter Score) surveys to give staff a chance to raise concerns and address them quickly.

Staffing is a big issue for agency owners, something that needs constant attention. The third major challenge is sales — new business. The agency space is incredibly crowded now compared to eight years ago, making it particularly challenging to stand out.

[AW]: Eight years ago, there were already plenty of agencies, but now the space is more crowded than ever, with many agencies vying for attention. Because of this, knowing how to do sales effectively is crucial. It’s important to have strong case studies that showcase your experience and demonstrate how you’ve successfully helped others, as this can resonate with potential clients.

I’ve spoken to many agency owners, and their experiences with sales vary. Some find outbound marketing works really well, while others say it doesn’t work at all. Some focus on events, marketing, and networking; others on advertising or promoting case studies. There are many ways to approach sales, but a key part is building a strong brand. Many clients look for agencies through word of mouth or prefer working with someone they’ve heard of or someone with a trusted track record. Building that brand and reputation is a significant part of sales, but it’s definitely a challenge for any business owner.

[OK]: Did you participate in any conferences where you had to represent your brand with a stand?

[AW]: We haven’t made any specific stands. I have spoken at conferences like Brighton SEO and other significant conferences in the UK. I’ve seen agencies with stands at those events, and I assume it works well for them, but it’s not something we’ve tried. I’ve found that speaking at conferences is a great way to build a profile and showcase expertise. Stands seem more challenging, but it’s just not something we’ve explored.

[OK]: Okay. That’s a good approach. Thank you.

[AW]: Another challenge I’d highlight is the mistakes we've made, which tie into these challenges. The first mistake was with our website. For the first couple of years, we didn’t really have one and relied on word of mouth. This made it difficult for people to find us. When we finally did get a website, I just threw something together, and it wasn’t very good or fast. Honestly, even today, our website isn’t where I want it to be in terms of using it as a marketing and sales tool. We should have invested more in it and done it properly from the start.

The second challenge was structural. As we grew, we didn’t initially have a proper structure in place for our staff. We expanded quickly without a clear plan. Now, we’ve made adjustments and have a better structure, which works much better for us.

The third issue is time. In the first 2 or 3 years, I wasn’t really focused on growing the agency; I was content with staying small. Looking back, I feel like that was wasted time, and we could have accomplished much more in those early years compared to what we do now.

[OK]: What can you say about micromanagement? When you first started running your agency, you were wearing many hats — marketer, director, SEO, etc. A lot of people struggle with micromanagement at the start. Where is the line between micromanagement and trying to build your own workflow? How can you recognize it and deal with it? It's tough to build an agency due to the many challenges faced at the beginning. How do you handle micromanagement issues?

[AW]: Yeah, definitely. A lot of it comes down to the difficulty of hiring staff you don’t know well. It ties back to the point about delegation. Personally, I find it hard to delegate, so at the start, I was learning a lot as a manager and probably did micromanage quite a bit. I was very protective of my brand and the work we were doing. While I’m still protective of the quality, over time, I’ve realized I can’t be everywhere. I can’t be on all client calls, in all meetings, managing all staff, or involved in every project. If I try to do that, the quality of my work suffers because I’m spread too thin.

A big part of managing micromanagement is understanding where your time is best spent. I talk to my staff about this a lot — knowing where their time is most valuable. For me, I know my time is best spent networking, doing sales, and talking to people.

[AW]: That’s where my skill set lies. I have other team members who excel at processes, technical SEO, digital PR, and various other areas. In the beginning, I tried to micromanage them, which led to me trying to do too much. That’s when you find yourself not getting much sleep because you’re trying to be involved in everything. It’s difficult at the start when you’re building a brand that’s closely tied to your reputation. In those first few years, the brand is a direct reflection of you, but as the agency grows, it becomes more of a broader entity.

Micromanagement can be damaging to the business in the long run, so it’s important to avoid it and learn to trust your team. A big part of that trust comes from hiring the right people for the right roles.

[OK]: When did you realize you were ready to hire a bigger team? What was that moment like for you?

[AW]: It was probably about a year and a half into Cedarwood. When I started, it was just me and one other staff member, an assistant I had brought in. Initially, we had three clients, but as we grew to five and six clients, I realized it was becoming too much for me. I tried to take a holiday but quickly realized I couldn’t truly disconnect. My assistant was quite junior, so it wasn’t fair to leave everything to her.

At that point, I knew I needed to build out a team with more specialized skills. My first hires were general digital marketing execs who handled both SEO and PPC, as we had a mix of clients. However, it’s incredibly difficult to learn SEO, PPC, link building, and digital PR simultaneously.

[AW]: I quickly realized that having one person try to specialize in SEO, PPC, and digital PR wasn’t the right approach. One of our digital marketing execs, who is now our head of operations, mentioned that she really enjoyed PPC but wasn’t as interested in SEO or digital PR. That conversation made me see how difficult it is to find someone who can excel in all three areas because they require very different skills and interests.

At that point, I knew I needed to build out the team with specialists. I needed someone for SEO, someone for digital PR, and someone for PPC. That realization marked the foundation of our team structure. To keep costs down, I avoided using recruiters in the early stages. In fact, we’ve only used a recruiter once since we started, although I’m now more open to it as we’re looking for more senior hires.

[AW]: I also found that as the business grew, I just didn’t have the time to handle recruitment myself. Early on, when I had more time, I used platforms like LinkedIn and Indeed to recruit directly. I focused on hiring graduates who I could train, which was relatively easy at the time because we received a lot of applications.

A lot of people ask what I look for in a first hire. Recently, we posted a graduate position and received 820 applications, which is overwhelming. We haven't even hired for the role yet because we're still sorting through the resumes. It’s a challenge, especially with so many qualified candidates. At the graduate level, most applicants have degrees and qualifications, so I look for those who show a real interest in the industry — whether it’s through learning Google Ads, taking free courses, or staying updated on industry trends.

In the early stages, we made some great hires who helped us grow, and some of them are still with us today, which is a testament to making the right choices early on. The challenge isn't just hiring but also retaining staff. When hiring graduates, you typically see two types: those who love working in a small business and want to grow with the team and those who come in for a couple of years to gain experience before moving to a larger agency.

We aim to retain 75-80% of our staff each year. As we grow, staff turnover will naturally increase, but we focus on promoting development and progression. We invest a lot of time and money into retention because the cost of rehiring and retraining is significant, especially if the new hire doesn’t work out.

Culturally, we strive to create a welcoming and flexible environment where people enjoy working. We prioritize work-life balance and ensure the workplace is comfortable and supportive.

[AW]: We try to accommodate our employees' hobbies and things that are important to them. We want them to feel comfortable, relaxed, and not stressed while working. We don't expect work outside of office hours, and we maintain a seven-hour workday. We strive to create a positive culture that promotes hard work, learning, and development.

Another important aspect of building a team is understanding that change is natural. When people move on, it can be unsettling, especially for a team with many graduates who may not be as accustomed to change. My advice is not to fear change when it's necessary. People will leave, and sometimes teams need to be restructured. Embrace change as part of building the most effective team and creating a great work environment.

[OK]: How did you know when you landed your first big client? What was that experience like?

[AW]: For the first two or three years, we primarily worked with clients we had connections with — mostly SMEs (small and medium-sized enterprises). Around the end of year three, we started attracting interest from larger clients. Even now, we’re getting inquiries from much bigger companies than we did before. This shift happened because we had built solid case studies and established accounts. Bigger companies often check the financials of the agencies they work with to ensure they’re capable.

Getting those bigger inquiries was very exciting, and it still is when larger companies reach out. They usually have good budgets, which allows us to do high-quality work. Our first big client was in the finance sector, and we threw everything we had into it. It was probably the most in-depth proposal we had ever done at that point.

[AW]: Our proposal for that client ended up being around 120 slides. We really dove deep into their website, analyzing every aspect, and did everything we could to win that contract. That effort paid off, and nurturing that relationship was key. We spend a lot of time talking to our clients, which helps us secure bigger clients through word of mouth and recommendations.

[AW]: Since COVID, though, building strong relationships with clients has become more challenging. Before the pandemic, we frequently met with clients face-to-face, which helped strengthen our relationships. Now, most interactions are remote. It’s still strange to me that some of our biggest clients are ones we’ve never met in person — we’ve handled everything from pitch to onboarding to monthly meetings remotely.

We do try to meet them, but many aren’t office-based anymore, or it’s hard to get the whole team together. We’ve had clients who started and left over the course of three years without us ever meeting them in person. It’s a different world for client relations now.

From a client retention perspective, this shift makes things more difficult. I enjoy meeting people in person, having lunch, and catching up, which adds a personal touch. Without that, you lose some of the human connection. With my original clients, I would chat with them often and consider them friends, but it’s harder to achieve that with more recent clients.

[OK]: Do you have any traditions? I know some companies send gifts to their clients during holidays. Is that a good way to maintain warm relationships over time?

[AW]: We don’t really give gifts. We might send out Christmas cards, but I know some agencies wine and dine clients or take them on holidays. Each agency does what works for them, but I prefer to steer away from that. I want clients to work with us because they’re happy with our work, not because they expect a free lunch. I love a free lunch as much as anyone, but I think it’s important to keep things professional. Going for lunch to discuss work is fine, but a holiday or something more than that isn’t something we’d do.

That said, I feel there’s more that can be done in the digital space to connect clients and agencies, even just from a networking perspective. We run a networking event in Manchester, and getting people to attend is like pulling teeth — it’s really hard, so getting people involved in anything right now is quite challenging.

[OK]: What about toxic clients? Have you ever encountered clients who seemed nice at first but turned out to be people you’d rather not work with?

[AW]: Yes, we’ve had a few toxic clients, but I’m glad that in the eight years we’ve been in business, I can name just three. We don’t work with any of them anymore, thankfully. We’ve developed a tight onboarding process to filter out potential issues before they even start. But yes, I’ve experienced it all — being called names, receiving WhatsApp messages at 6:30 p.m. on a Friday demanding calls, and then getting angry follow-ups at 8 a.m. on Monday when I didn’t respond. I’ve had to block clients, which only made them angrier.

Most of the time, we can identify potential issues early on, especially with clients who don’t respect boundaries or have unrealistic expectations. However, some do slip through the cracks, especially if they start off very nicely. We’re very strict about this — if a client is offensive, makes our staff uncomfortable, or contacts them inappropriately, we end the relationship immediately. In those two instances, I ended the client relationship within 24 hours.

[OK]: I had a client once, and we had only been working together for a week. In the middle of the night, between Sunday and Monday, he wrote to me at 2 a.m. asking why his website wasn’t ranked in the top ten.

[AW]: Yeah.

[OK]: Exactly. I was like, "What are you talking about? I'm sleeping. Why aren’t my pages indexed?" The next day, I was so angry, but I tried to be polite. I told the client, "Sorry, I don’t appreciate this kind of behavior. We cannot work together. I’ll refund your money; just forget about me and delete my number." It’s really annoying. But when you’re just starting your business, you need experience and case studies, and sometimes you end up working with difficult clients. I think the best approach from the start is to clearly explain your rules and how you’ll work together. My best tip for everyone: don’t give out your phone number. Stick to email and Google Meetings, but never provide your phone number, WhatsApp, or LinkedIn.

[AW]: I completely agree. I’ve found it a bit different because when I’m doing sales, I’ll often call someone just to chat. But for my staff, we have a strict no-number policy — no one gives out their phone number to clients. About a year and a half ago, one of our clients had my phone number. I was on holiday, and they called me. I didn’t respond, so they sent a message. I replied, saying, "Hi, I’m on vacation. Please liaise with this team member," and gave them the email address. But they kept messaging me. I had to reiterate that I was on vacation and they needed to speak to someone else. Now, I keep my phone on Do Not Disturb most of the time because I get a lot of sales calls from recruiters.

[AW]: My phone number seems to have ended up on a few random lists, so I get a lot of spam calls. When I’m working, especially if I need to focus, I keep my phone on Do Not Disturb (DND). I still get important calls from family or close friends, but I can sift through everything else at the end of the day. This helps me stay focused without distractions. I also put my phone on DND during holidays so I can completely switch it off. I didn’t know about this function until a colleague showed it to me recently, and now I love it.

[OK]: Can you recommend any practices or methodologies for organizing your work?

[AW]: I always recommend putting everything on a spreadsheet. It might not be the most sophisticated method, but when I started my business, I had so many things in my head that I was forgetting tasks. So, I put everything down on a spreadsheet. Now, I use a more advanced project management tool called Asana. I tell my staff, "If it’s not in Asana, it doesn’t exist in my life." What I mean is that if it’s not in my project management tool, I’ll forget to do it.

Every morning, I check my list on Asana to see what needs to be done that day. I complete whatever’s on the list, and if it’s not on the list, it doesn’t exist in my world. My brain simply can’t hold all that information.

[AW]: I can’t keep all our client projects, business operations, new business, sales, and everything else in my head. It’s simply too much and would overwhelm and stress me out. So, I take it out of my brain and put it into a system like Asana. It works much better for me. I highly recommend this to others because trying to keep everything in your head without externalizing it can be overwhelming. When you visualize your tasks, especially if you think you have a lot on your plate, you can more easily see what’s manageable. You can block out time in your calendar and make everything more doable rather than being overwhelmed by a long mental list.

[OK]: Thank you. Moving on to the next topic: SEO. It’s a complex area, especially for digital agencies, because different businesses have different structures and problems, particularly with technical SEO. Expectations vary — some companies provide deep technical support, while others don’t have any developers at all, but their websites have significant technical issues. How do you handle these situations? Do you provide your own technical support with developers, or how do you approach this? It’s a common and important topic to discuss.

[AW]: Technical SEO is indeed challenging, especially early on in an agency's life. When we started, I worked with a freelance web developer and included him as part of Cedarwood. I knew we needed someone who could code for clients who didn’t have their own web design and development resources. I felt it was crucial to take technical SEO seriously and get a handle on it from the start.

However, I’ve learned the importance of working with companies that have their own web developers. Initially, we considered offering technical SEO as part of our package, including implementation, but it’s an absolute minefield. The most important lesson is to clearly define what your technical SEO offering is as an agency.

Is it consultancy only? Consultancy and implementation? Or consultancy, implementation, and ongoing management? What I mean is, are you providing a technical audit and then handing it off for someone else to action? Are you offering a technical audit and working with the client’s web developer to implement the changes? Or are you conducting the audit and handling the implementation with your own developer?

It’s crucial for an agency to choose one of these approaches decisively. Without clear boundaries, you might end up offering suggestions that can’t be effectively implemented.

[AW]: One of the most common issues I see with technical SEO is core web vitals. Google's core web vitals algorithm update requires websites to pass certain metrics, but for many websites, this is a significant challenge because they weren’t built with these requirements in mind. While it’s something we aim to address, the cost of optimizing for core web vitals can be astronomical for some clients. When you weigh the cost versus the return, it’s not always the best investment from a technical perspective.

As an agency, you have to be clear about the services you’re providing. If you’re offering consultancy but not implementation, and the client’s team can’t implement the recommendations successfully, who is responsible if it affects their SEO performance? It’s crucial for agencies to have a clearly defined proposition for technical SEO implementation. Many agencies are great at technical SEO, doing log file analysis, and more, but the process often falls apart during implementation because it’s not structured properly.

[OK]: It’s a common mistake when an SEO freelancer points out core web vitals issues, like slow page speed, without knowing how to fix them. A business owner doesn’t care about the details; they just want the problem solved. If you don’t know how to fix something, it’s better to acknowledge that and offer to research the solution rather than include it in your audit without a clear plan. Not all core web vitals issues are critical. As an agency, your main goal is to drive traffic and leads. If a page speed score is 86 instead of 100, it’s usually not a big deal.

Of course, there are crucial issues like oversized images or blocking JavaScript that affect page load times, but if you don’t know how to fix these problems, it’s better to keep quiet rather than include them in your audit. It doesn’t reflect well on you as a specialist, and it’s not what SEO is truly about.

[OK]: I understand that good technical SEO specialists are often half developers or have at least some programming experience. Many excellent SEO specialists started as developers or full-stack developers before switching to SEO. So, it’s beneficial to consult with such people. But I agree, from a business perspective, the technical details aren't the priority. They care about how much it will cost to fix these issues and whether it will help them rank higher. If you’re not confident in fixing it, just skip it and focus on what truly drives results—content, backlinks, and brand performance. That’s what matters.

[OK]: Now, let’s talk about digital PR, a favorite topic. What are your thoughts on it?

[AW]: Digital PR is really interesting right now. We’ve had the Google algorithm leak that highlighted the value of links in digital PR, along with ongoing discussions about nofollow and dofollow links. Here in the UK, we’re seeing more publications give nofollow links, which adds another layer to consider.

Digital PR seems to fall into three categories:

1. Digital PR purely for links, which often ends up being spammy and doesn’t contribute much to brand building.
2. Digital PR for both brand and links, which helps showcase E-A-T (Expertise, Authoritativeness, Trustworthiness) signals — important for industries like finance and health.
3. Digital PR focused on brand building, with links as a byproduct.

From an agency perspective, digital PR is becoming more challenging, especially as some agencies race to the bottom with no-contract offerings and heavy link targets. We also see a lot of freelancers entering the space, which makes pricing more competitive.

Despite these challenges, we find digital PR to be a highly effective service that complements our SEO efforts. In some cases, it even stands alone. The key to running it effectively is educating clients on its purpose — it's not just a link-building exercise but a brand-building one. It can feed into other channels, promoting your expertise, authority, and trust. It also helps build thought leadership within your brand, especially through data-led campaigns, driving holistic value. It’s all about understanding what the service should achieve and aligning it with your broader goals.

[OK]: How do you report on your digital PR campaigns to clients? What key metrics do you use to demonstrate the value of your campaigns?

[AW]: It depends on the client. For some, we look at traditional PR metrics like brand share of voice and coverage. However, for most clients, we focus on the number and relevancy of links achieved, where those links are coming from, and the impact on specific pages or sections of the website. We also report on the resulting traffic and conversions. We always try to link our results to numerical metrics, such as additional sales or leads, but the primary focus is on the quality and relevancy of the links we’re creating.

[OK]: There’s always a lot of discussion about dofollow versus nofollow links. Many clients, especially those with limited SEO knowledge, insist on dofollow links because they’ve heard they’re important. How do you explain that nofollow links can also be valuable?

[AW]: Don’t get me wrong, dofollow links are the ultimate goal because they pass authority and are seen as a strong signal of trust. But the conversation around nofollow links is interesting. Google’s stance on them has been inconsistent — sometimes saying they don’t count and then later suggesting they might have some influence. Because of this uncertainty, it’s harder to measure their exact impact.

However, we know that elements like E-A-T (Expertise, Authoritativeness, Trustworthiness) are important in SEO, even if they’re not direct ranking factors. Nofollow links can still contribute to building E-A-T. If you’re getting a nofollow link from a reputable publication, it boosts your brand’s expertise, authority, and trust, even if it doesn’t directly pass SEO authority. It keeps your brand in relevant conversations and maintains visibility, which is valuable.

We’ve seen positive results for clients where a significant portion of the links were nofollow. These links still led to a good uplift in performance. So, I wouldn’t recommend dismissing nofollow links from your strategy — they still hold significant value and can be an important part of your overall approach.

[OK]: What if a client says they have a friend, brother, or sister who told them they need to use PBNs or other blackhat techniques for backlinks? How do you handle that?

[AW]: It's really challenging because companies that operate PBNs often offer deals like "pay £5,000 and get ten guaranteed links." For clients, especially when they report to their management, that guarantee is appealing because it's a clear sales pitch. On the other hand, when we explain that paying £5,000 might get you links, but we can’t guarantee a specific number because that’s not how digital PR works, it’s a harder sell. PBN operators make our job more difficult.

However, I’ve seen websites get absolutely decimated by blackhat link building, not by us, but by others. After the big Penguin 2.0 update, some clients came to us with their websites in shambles. For a year and a half, they did nothing because their sites were so badly hit — it was nearly business-ending. They had bought a ton of bad links, engaged in comment spamming, guest posting, and other shady tactics. It worked for a while, but when the update hit, everything collapsed.

We still have conversations with clients today who ask how we can improve their rankings, and we have to explain that the damage done over a long period can take a long time to undo. They may still have links from blogger networks that are currently passing authority, but over time, as those networks get banned, the links will lose their value. This can impact our campaigns because as those bad links lose their value, it might seem like the client’s rankings are dropping, even though it’s just the result of those old links getting penalized.

For the first few months of a campaign, we sometimes see a downward trend, which is a tough conversation to have with a client. They might think our work is causing the drop, but in reality, it’s the lingering effects of past blackhat tactics. Many brands don’t realize that engaging in blackhat link tactics causes long-term damage, and as those links lose value, it can affect their SEO for years to come.

[AW]: For agencies like ours, it's really challenging when we have to pick up the pieces after a client has engaged in blackhat tactics. We have to tell them that they’ll still feel the effects for years. They might be in a better position now than they should be, and it's a tough conversation to have, especially when a client says they used to rank number one and now they’re at ten. They think they should be back at the top, but the reality is they were never supposed to be there in the first place — they manipulated the system with bad links, and now they’re paying the price. It’s a bitter pill to swallow.

[OK]: I’ve had clients who think they know how to build links, suggesting they need to use target keywords as anchors or buy 1,000 backlinks for £20. I’ve had to tell them, “As long as I’m responsible for this, I’ll do it my way. Please keep your comments out of my job.” Maybe it’s not polite, but as a business owner, you hired me to do a job — trust me to get it done. If I’m right, you’ll see the results. If I’m wrong, you’ll know, but until then, let me work without interference.

[OK]: A quick disclaimer about blackhat and greyhat techniques: we’re talking about real businesses here. In some affiliate or greyhat niches, those tactics might still work, but for real businesses, it’s important to play by Google’s rules. Google might allow certain tactics in specific niches, but for most businesses, following the rules is crucial.

[OK]: I also wanted to ask you about case studies. Sometimesб it’s really hard to produce a case study, especially in industries like plumbing. It’s a good niche, but how do I set up a digital PR campaign and make it successful when the niche isn’t particularly exciting? What recommendations do you have for people working in less popular industries?

[AW]: The first thing I’d say is that case studies are incredibly important. We have nearly 30 case studies on our website just for digital PR, and when potential clients are looking at us, one of the first things they want to see is whether we can deliver the service. Having those case studies proves that we’ve done it before.

For businesses in drier niches — like plumbing, vaping, or gambling — creating case studies is even more crucial. These industries are harder to work in, so potential clients want to see how you’ve made it work. When digital PR is more challenging, like in these niches, showcasing creative approaches through case studies is essential. Clients need to see how you’ve managed to generate interest and build links in a niche that doesn’t lend itself to exciting topics.

[AW]: There’s always something exciting to talk about, or there’s always a data piece that can be linked to something interesting. If you’re working with a client in a more difficult niche, spend more time on ideation. Think outside the box, take your time researching, and look at what people have covered before and what they want to talk about. Tools like BuzzSumo can help you monitor trends and see what journalists are interested in. Get your team together and brainstorm ideas. For example, an agency with a plumbing client recently did a piece on the ideal length of time to take a bath. It’s a simple topic, but it ties into human interest and makes the subject more engaging.

With digital PR, case studies are crucial, but they’re even more important in drier topics. Showing how you can bring these subjects to life and get coverage is key.

[OK]: It takes a lot of time to set up a really good digital PR campaign. It’s not just about getting free links — people often don’t account for the work time and resources needed to create these case studies. I remember working on a case study about VPNs and cybersecurity. It was so rewarding because it led to my first link from TechRadar. That was a huge achievement for me as a link builder.

But it took four months of work. I hired a cybersecurity specialist, spent countless hours pitching journalists on MuckRack, and researched extensively. I’m not an expert in cybersecurity, but I made it happen. The link might have been "free" in the sense that we didn’t pay the journalist, but the effort and resources put into the campaign were significant. Setting up a digital PR campaign is a massive amount of work, but the feeling of success when you secure that first authoritative link is incredible.

Do you have any funny stories or memorable experiences from your digital PR campaigns, maybe something that really took off?

[AW]: We’ve had several campaigns over the years that performed really well across different niches. One that stands out was during Brexit in the UK. The country was very divided — 50% wanted to leave, and 50% wanted to remain. We created a "Brexit Christmas Tree," decorated with half representing those who wanted to leave and half for those who wanted to remain. We put the tree on a turntable so you could spin it around depending on who was visiting for Christmas. If you had guests who supported leaving, you’d show the leave side; if they were remainers, you’d show the remain side. It was a fun way to keep the whole family happy, regardless of their views.

That campaign gained a lot of traction. We made a video promoting it, created a product page on our client’s website, and even though the tree didn’t actually exist, people tried to buy it! The idea was comical and lighthearted, and it really resonated with people. We did it for a Christmas tree retailer, and it was both topical and trending at the time.

Another successful campaign we ran was right after the lockdowns from COVID ended in the UK. Everyone was talking about pets feeling lonely because their owners had been home all the time and were now going back to work. We flipped that idea and focused on houseplants instead. We explored how plants might "feel" without their owners around, like missing the sound of their voice or the house being cooler without the heating on. We talked to an expert, and that campaign got around 35 links from major publications in the UK. It was a simple idea, but it worked really well.

You can probably tell from the plant behind me that I’m not very good with houseplants, though!

[AW]: That’s what happens when you go back to work.

[OK]: Yeah, that’s why I don’t have any plants at home.

[AW]: I think this one’s on its last legs.

[OK]: Regarding digital PR campaigns, do you think we should track keyword visibility or brand mentions? What’s the right focus?

[AW]: I think it’s both. We need to track brand mentions because it’s important for branding, but when people invest in digital PR, they want to see a return. They want to know, "If I’m investing this much, what will I get in return?" The return typically comes from people searching for specific keywords and either buying the product or converting for the service. So, from a business perspective, tracking high-intent keywords is more valuable than just brand visibility. However, brand visibility does contribute to conversions over time, so you need to monitor both. But as a direct return metric, I’d focus more on the keywords than just the brand mentions.

[OK]: Okay. I’ve prepared a few questions to discuss with you. First, what specific moment or turning point made you realize your SEO agency was going to be successful? Do you remember that day?

[AW]: That’s a tough question because I still feel like Cedarwood is a work in progress, even though, eight years in, we’ve done really well and can be classified as successful. For me, the turning point was probably when we moved into our office in Manchester city center. For the first few years, we worked in shipping containers and then a slightly bigger one. But when we got our first office at Number One Spinningfields, which is a prime address in the UK’s business district, it felt like a big game changer. We suddenly became a much more reputable agency with a solid team of specialists in SEO, PPC, and digital PR. Having a formal office in a prestigious location solidified our status, making us feel less like a startup.

[OK]: What advice would you give to those with limited resources? What first steps could you recommend?

[AW]: Keeping things as lean as possible from the start is really important. I’ve seen people start businesses and immediately spend on things like stationery or throw big launch parties. We didn’t do any of that, which may have hurt us a bit from a branding perspective, but it definitely helped financially. If you have limited resources, you need to save as much as possible. For example, when I started Cedarwood, I would take the Megabus — a really cheap bus here in the UK — instead of the train. The train to London might cost £100 one way, while the bus is just £10. It’s a longer, less comfortable trip, but that £90 saved went back into the business.

Every little bit counts when you’re starting up, and you can still be productive on the bus with your laptop. It’s those small, cost-effective decisions that make a big difference. Be wise with your investments and ensure you’re making the right decisions where you can.

[OK]: What’s your opinion on people working multiple jobs at the same time? With the high cost of living, especially in the UK, and relatively low official salaries, some people find it necessary to work two or three jobs. What do you think about this as a business owner?

[AW]: It’s interesting because I’ve noticed more people working multiple jobs now than ever before. Ten years ago, I didn’t know many people with extra jobs on top of their day job, but now it’s quite common. People are working weekend or evening jobs in hospitality, retail, or other areas to make extra money.

When it comes to starting an agency or going freelance, I’ve had conversations with people recently who are considering it. The idea of having your own SEO agency is appealing because of the flexibility and being your own boss, but it takes time to get there. You need a good network, support, and a lot of hard work.

The current climate is tough for starting agencies or freelancing. If you’re working two or three jobs while trying to start an agency, it’s unlikely to work well. Starting an agency requires your full attention and resources. My advice is to ensure you’re in a good position before taking the leap. That might mean having financial support, a supportive partner or relative, or a couple of clients ready to work with you. It’s also important to build your network and capacity first. Taking the leap without this preparation can lead to burnout and prevent you from giving your agency the attention it needs to succeed.

[OK]: Thank you. Next question: How do you identify the right fit for your team during the hiring process? Do you have any specific questions or red flags that are important to you when hiring?

[AW]: Yes, I have specific questions that help me assess candidates. One of the key questions I always ask is, "What’s going on in the industry?" Because SEO is constantly changing, it’s crucial to have team members who are aware of the latest trends and developments. If someone has no awareness of what’s happening, it’s a red flag that they haven’t done any research or aren’t interested enough to stay informed.

Another important question is, "What do you want to get out of this role?" I want to understand their goals and motivations. For instance, if someone says they want to be a manager in six months, especially if they’re at a graduate level, it raises further questions. That’s a very quick timeline, and it’s important to ensure they have realistic expectations.

Finally, I always ask, "Why do you want to work at Cedarwood?" I need to know that they’ve chosen Cedarwood specifically, not just because they need a job. If they’ve taken the time to research our company and understand why we might be the right fit for them, they’re more likely to be engaged and enjoy their work here.

[OK]: Just about hiring — I'm interested. When you're talking to someone during an interview and everything seems fine, how do you feel that this is the right person you’d like to work with? What soft skills do you pay attention to besides the hard skills?

[AW]: I always look for someone who communicates well. In our industry, effective communication with clients is crucial. I want someone who I believe will build a good relationship with our clients, someone who genuinely cares about their work and takes pride in it. Being upfront and honest with clients is an important soft skill I value.

I’m also looking for a genuine interest or passion. I want to see that the candidate is engaged and has taken the time to learn about our business, maybe even noting something we’ve done recently. That level of engagement is important.

Another key thing I look for is someone who will fit well with our team. We’re a small business with 12 people, and we have a really good culture and working environment. I’m looking for someone who will enjoy working within that culture, not just someone who will get along with the team, but also someone who will find value in being part of our company.

[OK]: Last question — how did you stay motivated and focused during the hardest times in your business journey?

[AW]: I’m a big music fan, and music has always been a source of inspiration for me, especially during tough times. Every morning, I listen to music; it’s really important to me. During the most difficult times in my business journey, I leaned on music a lot. I’m a big fan of Glenn Frey and Tom Petty—older, more traditional rock music. I find their music incredibly inspirational, especially since some of it touches on overcoming difficult times.

When things get tough, I take time away from the business to reflect. I use music as inspiration and support rather than staying within the business and trying to work through it. I also enjoy watching live concert gigs. There’s a Tom Petty Bridge Street school benefit from the 1980s that I watch almost daily. It helps me zone out and refocus on what I’m doing.

[OK]: My favorite song is "Roxanne." I always listen to it during difficult times, and it keeps me motivated. I’m also a big music fan, so I agree—music can save the world. Thank you so much for joining us today. Your inspiring words will definitely motivate those who watch this video. Good luck with everything.

To our viewers, don’t forget to subscribe to our channel, like, and comment. We really appreciate it, and we work hard to bring you these episodes. See you in the next episode. Bye.